There seems to be a problem with checkboxes (i.e. xforms:select) - if you select one or more checkboxes and then change your mind and try to deselect them you have to leave at least one selected. If you try to deselect them all it just ignores you.
I thought this must be someting I am doing wrong in my application but I can see exactly the same problem demonstrated in the "Sortable Tables" example on the Orbean community website. Try deselecting all the checkboxes in the example - it won't let you. I agree that in this example it might be desirable behaviour, but it should be possible to have a set of checkboxes where none are selected. Is there something I am missing? An attribute on xforms:select perhaps? Julian Fawcett Esprit Ltd [hidden email] -- You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list. To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email] For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws |
Julian,
Sounds like a problem, tried it on the examples and it allows you to deselect, but when clicking submit it ignores your request. What engine are you using (NG or classic), How are you using the xforms:select in your application? Ryan Puddephatt Web Developer TFX Group 1 Michaelson Square Livingston West Lothian Scotand EH54 7DP * [hidden email] ( 01506 407 110 7 01506 407 108 -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: 09 December 2005 16:14 To: [hidden email] Subject: [ops-users] checkboxes and deselection There seems to be a problem with checkboxes (i.e. xforms:select) - if you select one or more checkboxes and then change your mind and try to deselect them you have to leave at least one selected. If you try to deselect them all it just ignores you. I thought this must be someting I am doing wrong in my application but I can see exactly the same problem demonstrated in the "Sortable Tables" example on the Orbean community website. Try deselecting all the checkboxes in the example - it won't let you. I agree that in this example it might be desirable behaviour, but it should be possible to have a set of checkboxes where none are selected. Is there something I am missing? An attribute on xforms:select perhaps? Julian Fawcett Esprit Ltd [hidden email] -- You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list. To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email] For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws |
In reply to this post by julian.fawcett
In the demo application my guess is that it is by design (and I think
that's not using NG). However it seems related to an outstanding bug that I'm still getting (see thread "RE: [ops-users] Bug with xforms:select1 and xforms:select (3.0 beta 4 nightly)") -- I'm finding that if an instance is updated, and there are checkboxes bound to this instance, when the instance is resubmitted checkbox state isn't correctly reflected in the instance document. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Puddephatt [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: 09 December 2005 16:31 To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [ops-users] checkboxes and deselection Julian, Sounds like a problem, tried it on the examples and it allows you to deselect, but when clicking submit it ignores your request. What engine are you using (NG or classic), How are you using the xforms:select in your application? Ryan Puddephatt Web Developer TFX Group 1 Michaelson Square Livingston West Lothian Scotand EH54 7DP * [hidden email] ( 01506 407 110 7 01506 407 108 -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: 09 December 2005 16:14 To: [hidden email] Subject: [ops-users] checkboxes and deselection There seems to be a problem with checkboxes (i.e. xforms:select) - if you select one or more checkboxes and then change your mind and try to deselect them you have to leave at least one selected. If you try to deselect them all it just ignores you. I thought this must be someting I am doing wrong in my application but I can see exactly the same problem demonstrated in the "Sortable Tables" example on the Orbean community website. Try deselecting all the checkboxes in the example - it won't let you. I agree that in this example it might be desirable behaviour, but it should be possible to have a set of checkboxes where none are selected. Is there something I am missing? An attribute on xforms:select perhaps? Julian Fawcett Esprit Ltd [hidden email] -- You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list. To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email] For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws |
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In reply to this post by julian.fawcett
[hidden email] wrote:
> There seems to be a problem with checkboxes (i.e. xforms:select) - if you select one or more checkboxes and then change your mind and try to deselect them you have to leave at least one selected. If you try to deselect them all it just ignores you. > > I thought this must be someting I am doing wrong in my application but I can see exactly the same problem demonstrated in the "Sortable Tables" example on the Orbean community website. Try deselecting all the checkboxes in the example - it won't let you. I agree that in this example it might be desirable behaviour, but it should be possible to have a set of checkboxes where none are selected. > > Is there something I am missing? An attribute on xforms:select perhaps? No, it should just work, and it does with the online examples: http://www.orbeon.com/ops/goto-example/xforms-controls Can you provide OPS version, XForms engine type (Classic or NG), and if possible a reproducible case? -Erik -- You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list. To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email] For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws |
I am using v3.0Beta and am using the Classic engine (not sure how to go about using the NG engine).
It is interesting that, as you say, it works on the http://www.orbeon.com/ops/goto-example/xforms-controls example, but not on the http://www.orbeon.com/ops/goto-example/xforms-report example. So I guess the question is what is the difference between the two. Having looked at the source code I notice that the xforms-controls example which does work uses <xforms:itemset/> whereas the xforms-report example which doesn't work is using <xform:choices/> with embedded <xforms:item/>s. My application also uses <xform:choices/> like this: <xforms:select ref="method" appearance="full"> <xforms:choices> <xforms:item> <xforms:label>Telephone</xforms:label> <xforms:value>Telephone</xforms:value> </xforms:item> <xforms:item> <xforms:label>Fax</xforms:label> <xforms:value>Fax</xforms:value> </xforms:item> <xforms:item> <xforms:label>Social Services Visit</xforms:label> <xforms:value>SocialServicesVisit</xforms:value> </xforms:item> <xforms:item> <xforms:label>Letter</xforms:label> <xforms:value>Letter</xforms:value> </xforms:item> <xforms:item> <xforms:label>E-mail</xforms:label> <xforms:value>Email</xforms:value> </xforms:item> <xforms:item> <xforms:label>Meeting or Discussion</xforms:label> <xforms:value>MeetingOrDiscussion</xforms:value> </xforms:item> </xforms:choices> </xforms:select> Regards, Joolz -- You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list. To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email] For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws |
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Julian,
The "Sortable Table" example (which is quite outdated BTW and should be upgraded to XForms NG) does this on purpose, as noted: when the user deselects all the checkboxes, then upon submission the original XForms instance is reloaded so as to select again all the checkboxes. The "XForms Controls" example uses XForms NG and has a completely different architecture. The best thing you can do is to build a case that we can reproduce. -Erik [hidden email] wrote: > I am using v3.0Beta and am using the Classic engine (not sure how to go about using the NG engine). > > It is interesting that, as you say, it works on the http://www.orbeon.com/ops/goto-example/xforms-controls example, but not on the http://www.orbeon.com/ops/goto-example/xforms-report example. > > So I guess the question is what is the difference between the two. > > Having looked at the source code I notice that the xforms-controls example which does work uses <xforms:itemset/> whereas the xforms-report example which doesn't work is using <xform:choices/> with embedded <xforms:item/>s. > > My application also uses <xform:choices/> like this: > > <xforms:select ref="method" appearance="full"> > <xforms:choices> > <xforms:item> > <xforms:label>Telephone</xforms:label> > <xforms:value>Telephone</xforms:value> > </xforms:item> > <xforms:item> > <xforms:label>Fax</xforms:label> > <xforms:value>Fax</xforms:value> > </xforms:item> > <xforms:item> > <xforms:label>Social Services Visit</xforms:label> > <xforms:value>SocialServicesVisit</xforms:value> > </xforms:item> > <xforms:item> > <xforms:label>Letter</xforms:label> > <xforms:value>Letter</xforms:value> > </xforms:item> > <xforms:item> > <xforms:label>E-mail</xforms:label> > <xforms:value>Email</xforms:value> > </xforms:item> > <xforms:item> > <xforms:label>Meeting or Discussion</xforms:label> > <xforms:value>MeetingOrDiscussion</xforms:value> > </xforms:item> > </xforms:choices> > </xforms:select> > > Regards, > Joolz -- You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list. To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email] For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws |
Erik,
Thanks for your time on this. I have put together a simple test application with just a single page to demonstrate the problem. The page-flow.xml looks like this: <config xmlns="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/controller" xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude" xmlns:xu="http://www.xmldb.org/xupdate" instance-passing="forward" xmlns:oxf="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/processors" xmlns:xxforms="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/xforms"> <!-- Statics needed by theme. --> <files path-info="*.css"/> <files path-info="*.js"/> <files path-info="*.gif"/> <files path-info="*.jpg"/> <page id="checkboxes" path-info="/checkboxes" xforms="oxf:/form.xml" model="oxf:/checkboxes.xpl" view="oxf:/view.xpl"> <action when="/form/action = 'save'"> <result page="checkboxes"> <xu:update select="/form/test"> <xu:copy-of select="document('oxf:instance')/form/test/*"/> </xu:update> </result> </action> </page> <page id="layout-css" path-info="/oxf-theme/orbeon-layout.cssd" model="/oxf-theme/orbeon-layout.xpl"/> <epilogue url="oxf:/config/epilogue.xpl"/> </config> The xforms file (form.xml) looks like this: <xforms:model xmlns:xforms="http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms" xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude"> <xforms:submission method="post"/> <xforms:instance> <form> <test> <check/> </test> <action/> </form> </xforms:instance> </xforms:model> The view file (view.xpl) looks like this: <p:config xmlns:xforms="http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms" xmlns:p="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/pipeline" xmlns:oxf="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/processors" xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xmlns:xxforms="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/xforms"> <p:param name="instance" type="input"/> <p:param name="data" type="input"/> <p:param name="data" type="output"/> <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> <p:input name="data"> <xhtml:head> <xhtml:title>Test Application</xhtml:title> <xhtml:meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"/> </xhtml:head> </p:input> <p:output name="head" id="head"/> </p:processor> <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> <p:input name="data"> <xhtml:p>Testing Checkbox</xhtml:p> </p:input> <p:output name="textone" id="textone"/> </p:processor> <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> <p:input name="data" href="aggregate( 'xhtml:body', #textone, #data )"/> <p:output name="data" id="stuff"/> </p:processor> <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> <p:input name="data" href="aggregate( 'xhtml:html', #head, #stuff )"/> <p:output name="data" ref="data"/> </p:processor> </p:config> Finally, the model file (checkboxes.xpl) looks like this: <p:config xmlns:xforms="http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms" xmlns:p="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/pipeline" xmlns:oxf="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/processors" xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xmlns:xxforms="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/xforms"> <p:param name="instance" type="input"/> <p:param name="data" type="output"/> <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> <p:input name="data"> <xforms:group ref="/form"> <xforms:group ref="test"> <xforms:select ref="check" appearance="full"> <xforms:choices> <xforms:item> <xforms:label>Telephone</xforms:label> <xforms:value>Telephone</xforms:value> </xforms:item> <xforms:item> <xforms:label>Fax</xforms:label> <xforms:value>Fax</xforms:value> </xforms:item> <xforms:item> <xforms:label>Letter</xforms:label> <xforms:value>Letter</xforms:value> </xforms:item> <xforms:item> <xforms:label>Email</xforms:label> <xforms:value>Email</xforms:value> </xforms:item> </xforms:choices> </xforms:select> </xforms:group> <xforms:submit> <xforms:label>Save</xforms:label> <xforms:hint>Save form</xforms:hint> <xforms:setvalue ref="action">save</xforms:setvalue> </xforms:submit> </xforms:group> </p:input> <p:output name="data" ref="data"/> </p:processor> </p:config> With this application I can select checkboxes and click the Save button and when the page refreshes it always shows a true representation of my selection with the one problematic exception: if I have deselected all the checkboxes it appears to do nothing, so when the pages refreshes any checkboxes that were previously selected remain selected. Regards, Julian -- You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list. To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email] For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws |
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Julian,
I managed to reproduce this problem, and I entered a bug: http://forge.objectweb.org/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=304625&group_id=168&atid=350207 I was unable to fix the bug right away, otherwise I would have done so. Unfortunately I cannot guarantee when this will be fixed, since this is with XForms Classic. -Erik [hidden email] wrote: > Erik, > > Thanks for your time on this. I have put together a simple test application with just a single page to demonstrate the problem. > > The page-flow.xml looks like this: > > <config xmlns="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/controller" xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude" xmlns:xu="http://www.xmldb.org/xupdate" > instance-passing="forward" xmlns:oxf="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/processors" xmlns:xxforms="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/xforms"> > <!-- Statics needed by theme. --> > <files path-info="*.css"/> > <files path-info="*.js"/> > <files path-info="*.gif"/> > <files path-info="*.jpg"/> > <page id="checkboxes" path-info="/checkboxes" xforms="oxf:/form.xml" model="oxf:/checkboxes.xpl" view="oxf:/view.xpl"> > <action when="/form/action = 'save'"> > <result page="checkboxes"> > <xu:update select="/form/test"> > <xu:copy-of select="document('oxf:instance')/form/test/*"/> > </xu:update> > </result> > </action> > </page> > <page id="layout-css" path-info="/oxf-theme/orbeon-layout.cssd" > model="/oxf-theme/orbeon-layout.xpl"/> > <epilogue url="oxf:/config/epilogue.xpl"/> > </config> > > The xforms file (form.xml) looks like this: > > <xforms:model xmlns:xforms="http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms" xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude"> > <xforms:submission method="post"/> > <xforms:instance> > <form> > <test> > <check/> > </test> > <action/> > </form> > </xforms:instance> > </xforms:model> > > The view file (view.xpl) looks like this: > > <p:config xmlns:xforms="http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms" xmlns:p="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/pipeline" > xmlns:oxf="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/processors" xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" > xmlns:xxforms="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/xforms"> > <p:param name="instance" type="input"/> > <p:param name="data" type="input"/> > <p:param name="data" type="output"/> > <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> > <p:input name="data"> > <xhtml:head> > <xhtml:title>Test Application</xhtml:title> > <xhtml:meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"/> > </xhtml:head> > </p:input> > <p:output name="head" id="head"/> > </p:processor> > <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> > <p:input name="data"> > <xhtml:p>Testing Checkbox</xhtml:p> > </p:input> > <p:output name="textone" id="textone"/> > </p:processor> > <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> > <p:input name="data" href="aggregate( 'xhtml:body', #textone, #data )"/> > <p:output name="data" id="stuff"/> > </p:processor> > <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> > <p:input name="data" href="aggregate( 'xhtml:html', #head, #stuff )"/> > <p:output name="data" ref="data"/> > </p:processor> > </p:config> > > Finally, the model file (checkboxes.xpl) looks like this: > > <p:config xmlns:xforms="http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms" xmlns:p="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/pipeline" xmlns:oxf="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/processors" xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xmlns:xxforms="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/xforms"> > <p:param name="instance" type="input"/> > <p:param name="data" type="output"/> > <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> > <p:input name="data"> > <xforms:group ref="/form"> > <xforms:group ref="test"> > <xforms:select ref="check" appearance="full"> > <xforms:choices> > <xforms:item> > <xforms:label>Telephone</xforms:label> > <xforms:value>Telephone</xforms:value> > </xforms:item> > <xforms:item> > <xforms:label>Fax</xforms:label> > <xforms:value>Fax</xforms:value> > </xforms:item> > <xforms:item> > <xforms:label>Letter</xforms:label> > <xforms:value>Letter</xforms:value> > </xforms:item> > <xforms:item> > <xforms:label>Email</xforms:label> > <xforms:value>Email</xforms:value> > </xforms:item> > </xforms:choices> > </xforms:select> > </xforms:group> > <xforms:submit> > <xforms:label>Save</xforms:label> > <xforms:hint>Save form</xforms:hint> > <xforms:setvalue ref="action">save</xforms:setvalue> > </xforms:submit> > </xforms:group> > </p:input> > <p:output name="data" ref="data"/> > </p:processor> > </p:config> > > With this application I can select checkboxes and click the Save button and when the page refreshes it always shows a true representation of my selection with the one problematic exception: if I have deselected all the checkboxes it appears to do nothing, so when the pages refreshes any checkboxes that were previously selected remain selected. > > Regards, > Julian -- You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list. To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email] For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws |
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Good news for those affected by this bug: it is now fixed.
-Erik Erik Bruchez wrote: > Julian, > > I managed to reproduce this problem, and I entered a bug: > > http://forge.objectweb.org/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=304625&group_id=168&atid=350207 > > > I was unable to fix the bug right away, otherwise I would have done so. > Unfortunately I cannot guarantee when this will be fixed, since this is > with XForms Classic. > > -Erik > > [hidden email] wrote: >> Erik, >> >> Thanks for your time on this. I have put together a simple test >> application with just a single page to demonstrate the problem. >> The page-flow.xml looks like this: >> >> <config xmlns="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/controller" >> xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude" >> xmlns:xu="http://www.xmldb.org/xupdate" >> instance-passing="forward" >> xmlns:oxf="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/processors" >> xmlns:xxforms="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/xforms"> >> <!-- Statics needed by theme. --> >> <files path-info="*.css"/> >> <files path-info="*.js"/> >> <files path-info="*.gif"/> >> <files path-info="*.jpg"/> >> <page id="checkboxes" path-info="/checkboxes" >> xforms="oxf:/form.xml" model="oxf:/checkboxes.xpl" view="oxf:/view.xpl"> >> <action when="/form/action = 'save'"> >> <result page="checkboxes"> >> <xu:update select="/form/test"> >> <xu:copy-of >> select="document('oxf:instance')/form/test/*"/> >> </xu:update> >> </result> >> </action> >> </page> >> <page id="layout-css" path-info="/oxf-theme/orbeon-layout.cssd" >> model="/oxf-theme/orbeon-layout.xpl"/> >> <epilogue url="oxf:/config/epilogue.xpl"/> >> </config> >> >> The xforms file (form.xml) looks like this: >> >> <xforms:model xmlns:xforms="http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms" >> xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" >> xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude"> >> <xforms:submission method="post"/> >> <xforms:instance> >> <form> >> <test> >> <check/> >> </test> >> <action/> >> </form> >> </xforms:instance> >> </xforms:model> >> >> The view file (view.xpl) looks like this: >> >> <p:config xmlns:xforms="http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms" >> xmlns:p="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/pipeline" >> xmlns:oxf="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/processors" >> xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" >> xmlns:xxforms="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/xforms"> >> <p:param name="instance" type="input"/> >> <p:param name="data" type="input"/> >> <p:param name="data" type="output"/> >> <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> >> <p:input name="data"> >> <xhtml:head> >> <xhtml:title>Test Application</xhtml:title> >> <xhtml:meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; >> charset=iso-8859-1"/> >> </xhtml:head> >> </p:input> >> <p:output name="head" id="head"/> >> </p:processor> >> <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> >> <p:input name="data"> >> <xhtml:p>Testing Checkbox</xhtml:p> </p:input> >> <p:output name="textone" id="textone"/> >> </p:processor> >> <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> >> <p:input name="data" href="aggregate( 'xhtml:body', #textone, >> #data )"/> >> <p:output name="data" id="stuff"/> >> </p:processor> >> <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> >> <p:input name="data" href="aggregate( 'xhtml:html', #head, #stuff >> )"/> >> <p:output name="data" ref="data"/> >> </p:processor> >> </p:config> >> >> Finally, the model file (checkboxes.xpl) looks like this: >> >> <p:config xmlns:xforms="http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms" >> xmlns:p="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/pipeline" >> xmlns:oxf="http://www.orbeon.com/oxf/processors" >> xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" >> xmlns:xxforms="http://orbeon.org/oxf/xml/xforms"> >> <p:param name="instance" type="input"/> >> <p:param name="data" type="output"/> >> <p:processor name="oxf:identity"> >> <p:input name="data"> >> <xforms:group ref="/form"> >> <xforms:group ref="test"> >> <xforms:select ref="check" appearance="full"> >> <xforms:choices> >> <xforms:item> >> <xforms:label>Telephone</xforms:label> >> <xforms:value>Telephone</xforms:value> >> </xforms:item> >> <xforms:item> >> <xforms:label>Fax</xforms:label> >> <xforms:value>Fax</xforms:value> >> </xforms:item> >> <xforms:item> >> <xforms:label>Letter</xforms:label> >> <xforms:value>Letter</xforms:value> >> </xforms:item> >> <xforms:item> >> <xforms:label>Email</xforms:label> >> <xforms:value>Email</xforms:value> >> </xforms:item> >> </xforms:choices> >> </xforms:select> >> </xforms:group> >> <xforms:submit> >> <xforms:label>Save</xforms:label> >> <xforms:hint>Save form</xforms:hint> >> <xforms:setvalue ref="action">save</xforms:setvalue> >> </xforms:submit> >> </xforms:group> >> </p:input> >> <p:output name="data" ref="data"/> >> </p:processor> >> </p:config> >> >> With this application I can select checkboxes and click the Save >> button and when the page refreshes it always shows a true >> representation of my selection with the one problematic exception: if >> I have deselected all the checkboxes it appears to do nothing, so when >> the pages refreshes any checkboxes that were previously selected >> remain selected. >> >> Regards, >> Julian > -- You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list. 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