XIncluding chunks, XUpdating or XQuerying them later

>
> -Erik
>
>  > I need to be able to include xml chunks from several entity xml
>  > files into a a master one that is supposed to be shown to users.
>  >
>  > Those users should be able to edit the final xml file but when doing
>  > so they should be actually updating the chunks.
>  >
>  > With an example:
>  >
>  > books.xml
>  > --------------
>  > <books
>  > <book isbn="foo" author="bar"/
>  > .....
>  > </books
>  >
>  > bookstores.xml
>  > ---------------------
>  > <bookstores
>  > <bookstore
>  > <book isbn="foo" author="bar"/
>  > ...........
>  > </bookstore
>  > </bookstores
>  >
>  > libraries.xml
>  > ---------------------
>  > <libraries
>  > <library
>  > <book isbn="foo" author="bar"/
>  > ...........
>  > </library
>  > </libraries
>  > or <libraries
>  >
>  > A given user updating now libraries realize the author for isbn
>  > "foo" is not "bar" but "xar" so whenever he updates libraries he
>  > should actually be updating books.xml.
>  >
>  > I am just trying to reuse any work already done about this
>  > problem. I can use XInclude to get the books chunks into the
>  > libraries and bookstores files. I can use XSLT to present a pretty
>  > form to the user and then whenever the user hits submit for a change
>  > I can use XUpdate (Or if I decide let us say to host my xml files in
>  > an eXist Native Database I could use its enhancement to XQuery) if I
>  > maintain somewhere the XInclude rules just to know what to update
>  > but too much custom code for something that maybe is already
>  > integrated in Orbeon Presentation Server or is part of a solution
>  > based on it.
>  >
>  > Generation of the GUI to edit should be done using a W3C schema and
>  > as far as I have read seems like OPS have done a lot of work about
>  > this.
>  >
>  > Could anyone point me to a good direction here?
>
> --
> Orbeon - XForms Everywhere:
> http://www.orbeon.com/blog/
>
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
>

> Hello Erik,
> Thanks a lot for answering. Below my comments/responses ...
>
> On 6/13/06, Erik Bruchez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Nestor,
> >
> > I think what you are trying to do makes sense.
> >
> > But it's not clear how you plan to edit the documents, how you would
> > like to persist them, and whether using XInclude is a must.
> >
>
> Nope Xinclude is not a must. It is just one of the ways to include the
> chunks but of course I am open to any solution that allows my final
> goal.
>
> > If it was just up to me, I would go this way: store everything in
> > eXist and use XForms to perform the edition.
> >
>
> Sounds great to me.
>
> > I would create a collection for books, and your books, bookstores and
> > libraries documents may be able to use eXist's XInclude support
> > (http://exist.sourceforge.net/xinclude.html).
> >
>
> XInclude or not XInclude that is the question ;-) because to be honest
> if this can be handled using a different than XInclude approach I
> would like to hear about it.
>
> > So let's say I want to edit libraries.xml. I retrieve that document
> > from eXist (xforms:instance/@src="...") in my XForms document. This
> > also comes with the included books.
>
> XIncluded or not?
>
> >Then I allow the user to edit the
> > books (within xforms:repeat).
> >
> > Now when it comes to saving a particular book, I have to make sure I
> > only save the book and not the entire bookstore or library, etc. The
> > details of this can certainly be worked out with XForms, but first I
> > would like to see whether the general approach makes sense to you.
>
> Yes it makes sense to me and the question is how you see OPS helping
> me with the XForms support I need. Furthermore I hope that being a
> presentation server it can definetely  offer somehow automatically
> XForms based on the XML Schema of the involved XML documents.
>
> >
> > -Erik
> >
> >  > I need to be able to include xml chunks from several entity xml
> >  > files into a a master one that is supposed to be shown to users.
> >  >
> >  > Those users should be able to edit the final xml file but when doing
> >  > so they should be actually updating the chunks.
> >  >
> >  > With an example:
> >  >
> >  > books.xml
> >  > --------------
> >  > <books
> >  > <book isbn="foo" author="bar"/
> >  > .....
> >  > </books
> >  >
> >  > bookstores.xml
> >  > ---------------------
> >  > <bookstores
> >  > <bookstore
> >  > <book isbn="foo" author="bar"/
> >  > ...........
> >  > </bookstore
> >  > </bookstores
> >  >
> >  > libraries.xml
> >  > ---------------------
> >  > <libraries
> >  > <library
> >  > <book isbn="foo" author="bar"/
> >  > ...........
> >  > </library
> >  > </libraries
> >  > or <libraries
> >  >
> >  > A given user updating now libraries realize the author for isbn
> >  > "foo" is not "bar" but "xar" so whenever he updates libraries he
> >  > should actually be updating books.xml.
> >  >
> >  > I am just trying to reuse any work already done about this
> >  > problem. I can use XInclude to get the books chunks into the
> >  > libraries and bookstores files. I can use XSLT to present a pretty
> >  > form to the user and then whenever the user hits submit for a change
> >  > I can use XUpdate (Or if I decide let us say to host my xml files in
> >  > an eXist Native Database I could use its enhancement to XQuery) if I
> >  > maintain somewhere the XInclude rules just to know what to update
> >  > but too much custom code for something that maybe is already
> >  > integrated in Orbeon Presentation Server or is part of a solution
> >  > based on it.
> >  >
> >  > Generation of the GUI to edit should be done using a W3C schema and
> >  > as far as I have read seems like OPS have done a lot of work about
> >  > this.
> >  >
> >  > Could anyone point me to a good direction here?
> >
> > --
> > Orbeon - XForms Everywhere:
> > http://www.orbeon.com/blog/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list.
> > To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> > For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
> > ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
> >
> >
> >
>

> Nestor Urquiza wrote:
>
>  > XInclude or not XInclude that is the question ;-) because to be
>  > honest if this can be handled using a different than XInclude
>  > approach I would like to hear about it.
>
> You could build your documents with XQuery in eXist, something like:
>
> xquery version "1.0";
> <library>
>    { collection('/db/my/books')/book }
> </library

>
> It all depends what you want your resulting document to look like. You
> may also want to ask advice to the eXist specialists on the exist-open
> mailing-list
>
>  >> Then I allow the user to edit the
>  >> books (within xforms:repeat).
>  >>
>  >> Now when it comes to saving a particular book, I have to make sure I
>  >> only save the book and not the entire bookstore or library, etc. The
>  >> details of this can certainly be worked out with XForms, but first I
>  >> would like to see whether the general approach makes sense to you.
>  >
>  > Yes it makes sense to me and the question is how you see OPS helping
>  > me with the XForms support I need.
>
> OPS comes with an XForms engine, so it can certainly help you build a
> user interface with XForms.
>
>  > Furthermore I hope that being a presentation server it can
>  > definetely offer somehow automatically XForms based on the XML
>  > Schema of the involved XML documents.
>
> Nope, if by that you mean something built-in that you can just use.
>
> Yup, if by that you mean that you can write code (XML pipelines, XSLT
> transformations) to do the work. We have done things like this in the
> past for customers, so it is definitely doable, but unfortunately not
> included in OPS at the moment.
>

>
> --
> Orbeon - XForms Everywhere:
> http://www.orbeon.com/blog/
>
>
>
>
> --
> You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list.
> To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
> ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
>
>
>

> Nestor Urquiza wrote:
>
>  > I am in a little bit of hurry as always ;-)
>
> Aren't we all...
>
>  > This is part of a a bigger project and I have just been analyzing
>  > alternatives. I would like to have the time to build something like
>  > that but I have to put efforts on other things. By now at least I
>  > know what can I get from the available open source efforts.
>
> I would be interested in hearing from you if you find an existing
> solution, open source or not. So far I haven't heard of serious XML
> Schema-to-XForms software in either category.
>
> -Erik
>
> --
> Orbeon - XForms Everywhere:
> http://www.orbeon.com/blog/
>
>
>
>
> --
> You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list.
> To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
> ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
>
>
>

> Well Altova Authentic is a solution based on Altova Stylevision
> Stylesheets. The product is free but to provide the stylesheets needed
> you need Stylevision product.
>
> Basically basd on the schema a Stylevision Stylesheet can be created
> and after that Authentic forms are rendered automatically if you
> associate your stylesheet with the given xml. So there you have a mix
> of commercial/free solution.
>
> Since the solution was mixed I was trying to get something really free
> (open source being ideal of course)
>
> I will post in fact my question to altova ,oXigen and Serna (Syntext)
> lists just in case the complete cycle is covered (including the chunks
> in the final document as well as being able to edit directly them from
> that document).
>
> Just for your info my reasearch has covered Orbeon, eXist, Lenya,
> Cocoon, Chiba, Xerlin and Altova Authentic so far.
>
> On 6/14/06, Erik Bruchez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Nestor Urquiza wrote:
> >
> >  > I am in a little bit of hurry as always ;-)
> >
> > Aren't we all...
> >
> >  > This is part of a a bigger project and I have just been analyzing
> >  > alternatives. I would like to have the time to build something like
> >  > that but I have to put efforts on other things. By now at least I
> >  > know what can I get from the available open source efforts.
> >
> > I would be interested in hearing from you if you find an existing
> > solution, open source or not. So far I haven't heard of serious XML
> > Schema-to-XForms software in either category.
> >
> > -Erik
> >
> > --
> > Orbeon - XForms Everywhere:
> > http://www.orbeon.com/blog/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list.
> > To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> > For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
> > ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
> >
> >
> >
>

> I just evaluated Serna after posting and receiving some advice from
> the site and here is my final post to that forum ... since you
> requested any advances ...
>
> I just downloaded and Serna.
> It does update the XIncluded chunks however the support for XPointer
> is limited to the element ID. In other words the fuctions element()
> and xpointer() are not supported and of course there is no possibility
> to include just a node based on an XPath expression.
>
> Also consider the usecase handling the creation of new nodes for which
> you definetely need to be able to use chunks that are stored in
> external files and whenever you insert those chunks you should
> actually should be inserting a new XInclude statement in the final
> file. If a new node has to be added and is not present in the chunks
> files then a possibility to add the new element to the chunks file
> should be present and of course to include thru XInclude that element
> in the final file.
>
> Are you planning such an implementation for this or other product?
>
> Thanks a lot!,
> Nestor
>
>
> On 6/14/06, Nestor Urquiza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Well Altova Authentic is a solution based on Altova Stylevision
> > Stylesheets. The product is free but to provide the stylesheets needed
> > you need Stylevision product.
> >
> > Basically basd on the schema a Stylevision Stylesheet can be created
> > and after that Authentic forms are rendered automatically if you
> > associate your stylesheet with the given xml. So there you have a mix
> > of commercial/free solution.
> >
> > Since the solution was mixed I was trying to get something really free
> > (open source being ideal of course)
> >
> > I will post in fact my question to altova ,oXigen and Serna (Syntext)
> > lists just in case the complete cycle is covered (including the chunks
> > in the final document as well as being able to edit directly them from
> > that document).
> >
> > Just for your info my reasearch has covered Orbeon, eXist, Lenya,
> > Cocoon, Chiba, Xerlin and Altova Authentic so far.
> >
> > On 6/14/06, Erik Bruchez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Nestor Urquiza wrote:
> > >
> > >  > I am in a little bit of hurry as always ;-)
> > >
> > > Aren't we all...
> > >
> > >  > This is part of a a bigger project and I have just been analyzing
> > >  > alternatives. I would like to have the time to build something like
> > >  > that but I have to put efforts on other things. By now at least I
> > >  > know what can I get from the available open source efforts.
> > >
> > > I would be interested in hearing from you if you find an existing
> > > solution, open source or not. So far I haven't heard of serious XML
> > > Schema-to-XForms software in either category.
> > >
> > > -Erik
> > >
> > > --
> > > Orbeon - XForms Everywhere:
> > > http://www.orbeon.com/blog/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list.
> > > To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> > > For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
> > > ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

> Hey Erik,
> Maybe this article would be interesting for you. It explains the basis
> for generating HTML forms (XForms would be easier) from XML Schemas:
> http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/01/15/transforming-schemas.html?page=1
>
> Following that method, XForms could be automatically built after
> transforming through XSLT a particular schemas.
>
> Let me know your thoughts and thanks a lot for all your help,
>
> Nestor
>
> On 6/14/06, Nestor Urquiza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I just evaluated Serna after posting and receiving some advice from
> > the site and here is my final post to that forum ... since you
> > requested any advances ...
> >
> > I just downloaded and Serna.
> > It does update the XIncluded chunks however the support for XPointer
> > is limited to the element ID. In other words the fuctions element()
> > and xpointer() are not supported and of course there is no possibility
> > to include just a node based on an XPath expression.
> >
> > Also consider the usecase handling the creation of new nodes for which
> > you definetely need to be able to use chunks that are stored in
> > external files and whenever you insert those chunks you should
> > actually should be inserting a new XInclude statement in the final
> > file. If a new node has to be added and is not present in the chunks
> > files then a possibility to add the new element to the chunks file
> > should be present and of course to include thru XInclude that element
> > in the final file.
> >
> > Are you planning such an implementation for this or other product?
> >
> > Thanks a lot!,
> > Nestor
> >
> >
> > On 6/14/06, Nestor Urquiza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Well Altova Authentic is a solution based on Altova Stylevision
> > > Stylesheets. The product is free but to provide the stylesheets needed
> > > you need Stylevision product.
> > >
> > > Basically basd on the schema a Stylevision Stylesheet can be created
> > > and after that Authentic forms are rendered automatically if you
> > > associate your stylesheet with the given xml. So there you have a mix
> > > of commercial/free solution.
> > >
> > > Since the solution was mixed I was trying to get something really free
> > > (open source being ideal of course)
> > >
> > > I will post in fact my question to altova ,oXigen and Serna (Syntext)
> > > lists just in case the complete cycle is covered (including the chunks
> > > in the final document as well as being able to edit directly them from
> > > that document).
> > >
> > > Just for your info my reasearch has covered Orbeon, eXist, Lenya,
> > > Cocoon, Chiba, Xerlin and Altova Authentic so far.
> > >
> > > On 6/14/06, Erik Bruchez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Nestor Urquiza wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  > I am in a little bit of hurry as always ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Aren't we all...
> > > >
> > > >  > This is part of a a bigger project and I have just been analyzing
> > > >  > alternatives. I would like to have the time to build something like
> > > >  > that but I have to put efforts on other things. By now at least I
> > > >  > know what can I get from the available open source efforts.
> > > >
> > > > I would be interested in hearing from you if you find an existing
> > > > solution, open source or not. So far I haven't heard of serious XML
> > > > Schema-to-XForms software in either category.
> > > >
> > > > -Erik
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Orbeon - XForms Everywhere:
> > > > http://www.orbeon.com/blog/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list.
> > > > To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
> > > > ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list.
> To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
> ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
>
>
>

> Hi Nestor,
>
> Nice reference. What is described in this article is very similar to
> what we have done in past for some projects, of course generating
> XForms instead HTML forms.
>
> For simple cases the XSLT that does the transformation will be quite
> simple, but it will be highly dependent on the annotation you use in
> the schema and how you want things to be laid out in the resulting
> HTML. This limits the reusability of that XSLT code. So I think that
> the "Schema to XForms with XSLT" is more a pattern than a reusable
> software package.
>
> Alex
>
> On 6/15/06, Nestor Urquiza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hey Erik,
> > Maybe this article would be interesting for you. It explains the basis
> > for generating HTML forms (XForms would be easier) from XML Schemas:
> > http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/01/15/transforming-schemas.html?page=1
> >
> > Following that method, XForms could be automatically built after
> > transforming through XSLT a particular schemas.
> >
> > Let me know your thoughts and thanks a lot for all your help,
> >
> > Nestor
> >
> > On 6/14/06, Nestor Urquiza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I just evaluated Serna after posting and receiving some advice from
> > > the site and here is my final post to that forum ... since you
> > > requested any advances ...
> > >
> > > I just downloaded and Serna.
> > > It does update the XIncluded chunks however the support for XPointer
> > > is limited to the element ID. In other words the fuctions element()
> > > and xpointer() are not supported and of course there is no possibility
> > > to include just a node based on an XPath expression.
> > >
> > > Also consider the usecase handling the creation of new nodes for which
> > > you definetely need to be able to use chunks that are stored in
> > > external files and whenever you insert those chunks you should
> > > actually should be inserting a new XInclude statement in the final
> > > file. If a new node has to be added and is not present in the chunks
> > > files then a possibility to add the new element to the chunks file
> > > should be present and of course to include thru XInclude that element
> > > in the final file.
> > >
> > > Are you planning such an implementation for this or other product?
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot!,
> > > Nestor
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/14/06, Nestor Urquiza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Well Altova Authentic is a solution based on Altova Stylevision
> > > > Stylesheets. The product is free but to provide the stylesheets needed
> > > > you need Stylevision product.
> > > >
> > > > Basically basd on the schema a Stylevision Stylesheet can be created
> > > > and after that Authentic forms are rendered automatically if you
> > > > associate your stylesheet with the given xml. So there you have a mix
> > > > of commercial/free solution.
> > > >
> > > > Since the solution was mixed I was trying to get something really free
> > > > (open source being ideal of course)
> > > >
> > > > I will post in fact my question to altova ,oXigen and Serna (Syntext)
> > > > lists just in case the complete cycle is covered (including the chunks
> > > > in the final document as well as being able to edit directly them from
> > > > that document).
> > > >
> > > > Just for your info my reasearch has covered Orbeon, eXist, Lenya,
> > > > Cocoon, Chiba, Xerlin and Altova Authentic so far.
> > > >
> > > > On 6/14/06, Erik Bruchez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > Nestor Urquiza wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >  > I am in a little bit of hurry as always ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Aren't we all...
> > > > >
> > > > >  > This is part of a a bigger project and I have just been analyzing
> > > > >  > alternatives. I would like to have the time to build something like
> > > > >  > that but I have to put efforts on other things. By now at least I
> > > > >  > know what can I get from the available open source efforts.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be interested in hearing from you if you find an existing
> > > > > solution, open source or not. So far I haven't heard of serious XML
> > > > > Schema-to-XForms software in either category.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Erik
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Orbeon - XForms Everywhere:
> > > > > http://www.orbeon.com/blog/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list.
> > > > > To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> > > > > For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
> > > > > ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list.
> > To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> > For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
> > ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Blog (XML, Web apps, Open Source):
> http://www.orbeon.com/blog/
>
>
>
>
> --
> You receive this message as a subscriber of the [hidden email] mailing list.
> To unsubscribe: mailto:[hidden email]
> For general help: mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help
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>
>
>