RE: [Chiba-users] XPath 2.0

> is a primary color
> - lots of new functions like min(), max(), avg(), regular expressions
> support (match(), replace() etc), string manipulation (starts-with()
> etc), functions for manipulating date, dateTime, time etc.
>
> Once you've used it you can't go back.
>
> Adrian
>
> Ulrich Nicolas Lissé wrote:
>> Richard,
>>
>> no, we won't move to XPath 2.0 unless XForms requires it.
>>
>> Uli.
>>
>> Richard Braman wrote:
>>> Joern, will Chiba make a move to Xpath 2.0 anytime soon?
>>>  
>>>
>>> Richard Braman
>>> mailto:[hidden email]
>>> 561.748.4002 (voice)
>>>
>>> http://www.taxcodesoftware.org <http://www.taxcodesoftware.org/>
>>> Free Open Source Tax Software
>>>
>>>  
>>
>>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting
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> I think there would be a number of people who would be willing to
> contribute to it.  You just have to get them organized.  I think Adrian
> and I would be two willing people.  I agree saxon is the logical choice.
> Orbeon also has to upgrade to the newest Saxon and may there is the
> possability for a joint effort.  Kill two birds with one stone.  Sorry
> for not arguing for it, I just have done so much arguing lately I am not
> much of a fight right now :(.  I think adrian just wants his product to
> be able to run on multiple servers, not just one.  I feiil the same.  DO
> any of the Xforms clients run Xpath 2.0?  There is serious demand for
> Xpath 2.0 because it makes Xpath 1.0 look juvenile.  I don’t know about
> the WG, but they will eventually upgrade it that is for sure, as it is a
> standard.  I don’t want to wait around for them.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joern Turner [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:41 PM
> To: Adrian Baker
> Cc: Ulrich Nicolas Lissé; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Chiba-users] XPath 2.0
>
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> that's the kind of input i like - giving arguments instead of a simple
> question.
>
> Actually Uli and me *have* thought about this question more than once
> and i hope Uli won't bash me when i rephrase his statement as 'not now'
> and 'not by request without any argue'.
>
> Let's be concrete. I think (please correct) there's not much choice when
>
> it comes to XPath 2 implementations and we considered a move to Saxon
> several times. Currently (until Chiba Web 2.0 final) we still have other
>
> priorities but if there's serious demand for it we definitely will take
> this into account.
>
> But as we're still doing the whole coding and not much contributors are
> around currently it *will* take time until we reach there. Stability and
>
> conformance to XForms 1.0 and after that XForms 1.1 is still much higher
>
> on our list. Sorry if that's bad news for you but i appreciate your
> input very much and at least it brought that issue to our attention.
>
> But the problem remains - using XPath 2 in your XForms simply makes them
>
> non-interoperable at least until there's maybe a majority of
> implementations doing the same (not waiting for the WG).
>
> Joern
>
> Adrian Baker wrote:
>> I think the benefits of having XPath 2.0 support would make it
>> worthwhile shifting before a revised version of the spec mandates
> XPath
>> 2.0 support, which might be years away.
>>
>> Having used both 1.0 and 2.0 in XForms, I can say that XPath 2.0
>> brings
>> a huge number of features which make form authoring much easier and
> more
>> powerful:
>> - support for schema data types, including arithmetic on date,
> dateTimes
>> etc. (eg try calculating a xs:duration from two xs:dateTimes using
> XPath
>> 1.0 and formatting the result). Also means that results of
> calculations
>> are properly typed, rather than always resulting in float.
>> - the 'castable as' operater means you can test if a value is a valid
>> xml schema datatype (eg date, integer) and act accordingly. This means
>
>> you can have a specific alert for the case of a user entering 'fruit'
>> into an integer field, because you can detect the datatype mismatch.
>> Also makes handling calculations where the dependent fields are
> invalid
>> in this way much easier and more explicit (in XPath 1.0 you just get
> NaN).
>> - sequence comparison. eg color = ('red','green','blue') tests if
> color
>> is a primary color
>> - lots of new functions like min(), max(), avg(), regular expressions
>> support (match(), replace() etc), string manipulation (starts-with()
>> etc), functions for manipulating date, dateTime, time etc.
>>
>> Once you've used it you can't go back.
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>> Ulrich Nicolas Lissé wrote:
>>> Richard,
>>>
>>> no, we won't move to XPath 2.0 unless XForms requires it.
>>>
>>> Uli.
>>>
>>> Richard Braman wrote:
>>>> Joern, will Chiba make a move to Xpath 2.0 anytime soon?
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Richard Braman
>>>> mailto:[hidden email]
>>>> 561.748.4002 (voice)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.taxcodesoftware.org <http://www.taxcodesoftware.org/>
>>>> Free Open Source Tax Software
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting
>> language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend
>> the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this
>
>> new coding territory!
>> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=110944&bid=241720&dat=1216
>> 42
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chiba-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiba-users
>>
>
>

> Richard,
>
> i'm not doubting the value of XPath 2.0 in XForms but as i already
> stated the move will be major one. As XPath evaluations are essential
> for correct processing this is an operation on the open heart and XPath
> code is used in dozens of classes.
>
> A quick search showed 360 usages in nearly all packages of the Chiba
> Core and you might imagine that this is a piece of work. Further there
> are lots of nifty details to consider that you can easily miss by a
> quick look. That said you can guess that such a move is only possible
> with the backing of lots of unit tests.
>
> To be honest i doubt that it's possible for someone that did not wrote
> all these classes to find a way through the jungle (not saying it's
> impossible).
>
> Also although we're open to cooperation there won't be much use to team
> up with Orbeon cause they have a completely different API and
> implementation so our exchange would be more or less superficial and
> constrained to some discussions about the Saxon API maybe.
>
> Coordinating people in such an important part of the system easily leads
> to more work (and possibly worse code quality) than doing it ourselves.
> Sorry if that sounds harsh or even arrogant but that's the experience of
> 5 years in open source.
>
> If one really wants features like that the best way is to donate to the
> project. That way we can acquire developers and spend more time on the
> core.
>
> So of course XPath 2.0 is *really* nice-to-have but still nice-to-have
> and not a strict requirement and also most important there's the problem
> of interop with other implementations. From my viewpoint XPath 2 will
> still have to wait until we have the more pressing things going. We'll
> try to setup a roadmap for the upcoming releases of Chiba so that
> there's maybe more transparency when to expect certain things in Chiba.
>
> Sorry if that's not what you'd like to hear but keep in mind that we
> only 2 developers keeping the code in shape. The market forces us to
> react on new developments such as AJAX and we're happy we could make it
> run in a relatively short time.
>
> I'm not complaining about the situation - we've choosen it. But
> sometimes it breaks out ;) when people asking for more and more features
> without even honoring *actively* what is there and consider open source
> as a cheap takeaway without even thinking about leaving a tip on the desk.
>
> That's not personal bashing on you Richard. I only sometimes feel that
> people should better understand what our constraints are.
>
> Of course all this should not mean that we're not open to contributions.
> In contrast we appreciate any well thought out input and are happy to
> help contributors with their task. But this has to happen more or less
> on a self-motivated base - we can only provide a bit of guidance.
>
> Joern
>
> Richard Braman wrote:
>> I think there would be a number of people who would be willing to
>> contribute to it.  You just have to get them organized.  I think Adrian
>> and I would be two willing people.  I agree saxon is the logical choice.
>> Orbeon also has to upgrade to the newest Saxon and may there is the
>> possability for a joint effort.  Kill two birds with one stone.  Sorry
>> for not arguing for it, I just have done so much arguing lately I am not
>> much of a fight right now :(.  I think adrian just wants his product to
>> be able to run on multiple servers, not just one.  I feiil the same.  DO
>> any of the Xforms clients run Xpath 2.0?  There is serious demand for
>> Xpath 2.0 because it makes Xpath 1.0 look juvenile.  I don’t know about
>> the WG, but they will eventually upgrade it that is for sure, as it is a
>> standard.  I don’t want to wait around for them.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joern Turner [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Wednesday, March
>> 15, 2006 4:41 PM
>> To: Adrian Baker
>> Cc: Ulrich Nicolas Lissé; [hidden email];
>> [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Chiba-users] XPath 2.0
>>
>>
>> Hi Adrian,
>>
>> that's the kind of input i like - giving arguments instead of a simple
>> question.
>>
>> Actually Uli and me *have* thought about this question more than once
>> and i hope Uli won't bash me when i rephrase his statement as 'not
>> now' and 'not by request without any argue'.
>>
>> Let's be concrete. I think (please correct) there's not much choice when
>>
>> it comes to XPath 2 implementations and we considered a move to Saxon
>> several times. Currently (until Chiba Web 2.0 final) we still have other
>>
>> priorities but if there's serious demand for it we definitely will
>> take this into account.
>>
>> But as we're still doing the whole coding and not much contributors
>> are around currently it *will* take time until we reach there.
>> Stability and
>>
>> conformance to XForms 1.0 and after that XForms 1.1 is still much higher
>>
>> on our list. Sorry if that's bad news for you but i appreciate your
>> input very much and at least it brought that issue to our attention.
>>
>> But the problem remains - using XPath 2 in your XForms simply makes them
>>
>> non-interoperable at least until there's maybe a majority of
>> implementations doing the same (not waiting for the WG).
>>
>> Joern
>>
>> Adrian Baker wrote:
>>> I think the benefits of having XPath 2.0 support would make it
>>> worthwhile shifting before a revised version of the spec mandates
>> XPath
>>> 2.0 support, which might be years away.
>>>
>>> Having used both 1.0 and 2.0 in XForms, I can say that XPath 2.0 brings
>>> a huge number of features which make form authoring much easier and
>> more
>>> powerful:
>>> - support for schema data types, including arithmetic on date,
>> dateTimes
>>> etc. (eg try calculating a xs:duration from two xs:dateTimes using
>> XPath
>>> 1.0 and formatting the result). Also means that results of
>> calculations
>>> are properly typed, rather than always resulting in float.
>>> - the 'castable as' operater means you can test if a value is a valid
>>> xml schema datatype (eg date, integer) and act accordingly. This means
>>
>>> you can have a specific alert for the case of a user entering 'fruit'
>>> into an integer field, because you can detect the datatype mismatch.
>>> Also makes handling calculations where the dependent fields are
>> invalid
>>> in this way much easier and more explicit (in XPath 1.0 you just get
>> NaN).
>>> - sequence comparison. eg color = ('red','green','blue') tests if
>> color
>>> is a primary color
>>> - lots of new functions like min(), max(), avg(), regular expressions
>>> support (match(), replace() etc), string manipulation (starts-with()
>>> etc), functions for manipulating date, dateTime, time etc.
>>>
>>> Once you've used it you can't go back.
>>>
>>> Adrian
>>>
>>> Ulrich Nicolas Lissé wrote:
>>>> Richard,
>>>>
>>>> no, we won't move to XPath 2.0 unless XForms requires it.
>>>>
>>>> Uli.
>>>>
>>>> Richard Braman wrote:
>>>>> Joern, will Chiba make a move to Xpath 2.0 anytime soon?
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Braman
>>>>> mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>> 561.748.4002 (voice)
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.taxcodesoftware.org <http://www.taxcodesoftware.org/>
>>>>> Free Open Source Tax Software
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting
>>> language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend
>>> the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this
>>
>>> new coding territory!
>>> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=110944&bid=241720&dat=1216
>>> 42
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chiba-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/chiba-users
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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>
>
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> for them.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joern Turner [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:41 PM
> To: Adrian Baker
> Cc: Ulrich Nicolas Lissé; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Chiba-users] XPath 2.0
>
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> that's the kind of input i like - giving arguments instead of a simple
> question.
>
> Actually Uli and me *have* thought about this question more than once
> and i hope Uli won't bash me when i rephrase his statement as 'not

>
> conformance to XForms 1.0 and after that XForms 1.1 is still much
> higher
>
> on our list. Sorry if that's bad news for you but i appreciate your
> input very much and at least it brought that issue to our attention.
>
> But the problem remains - using XPath 2 in your XForms simply makes
> them
>
> non-interoperable at least until there's maybe a majority of
> implementations doing the same (not waiting for the WG).
>
> Joern
>
> Adrian Baker wrote:
>> I think the benefits of having XPath 2.0 support would make it
>> worthwhile shifting before a revised version of the spec mandates
> XPath
>> 2.0 support, which might be years away.
>>
>> Having used both 1.0 and 2.0 in XForms, I can say that XPath 2.0
>> brings
>> a huge number of features which make form authoring much easier and
> more
>> powerful:
>> - support for schema data types, including arithmetic on date,
> dateTimes
>> etc. (eg try calculating a xs:duration from two xs:dateTimes using
> XPath
>> 1.0 and formatting the result). Also means that results of
> calculations
>> are properly typed, rather than always resulting in float.
>> - the 'castable as' operater means you can test if a value is a valid
>> xml schema datatype (eg date, integer) and act accordingly. This

>
>> you can have a specific alert for the case of a user entering 'fruit'
>> into an integer field, because you can detect the datatype mismatch.
>> Also makes handling calculations where the dependent fields are
> invalid
>> in this way much easier and more explicit (in XPath 1.0 you just get
> NaN).
>> - sequence comparison. eg color = ('red','green','blue') tests if
> color
>> is a primary color
>> - lots of new functions like min(), max(), avg(), regular expressions
>> support (match(), replace() etc), string manipulation (starts-with()
>> etc), functions for manipulating date, dateTime, time etc.
>>
>> Once you've used it you can't go back.
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>> Ulrich Nicolas Lissé wrote:
>>> Richard,
>>>
>>> no, we won't move to XPath 2.0 unless XForms requires it.
>>>
>>> Uli.
>>>
>>> Richard Braman wrote:
>>>> Joern, will Chiba make a move to Xpath 2.0 anytime soon?
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> Richard Braman
>>>> mailto:[hidden email]
>>>> 561.748.4002 (voice)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.taxcodesoftware.org <http://www.taxcodesoftware.org/>
>>>> Free Open Source Tax Software
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting
>> language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend
>> the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into